Rest & War With Ben Stuart
April 19, 2022
Jennie Allen
Bible teacher, founder of IF:Gathering
If you find yourself feeling lost in what seems like a never ending sin struggle, this one is for you. Be encouraged by this conversation between Jennie and Ben Stuart.
All right, guys, Ben Stewart here today. I am so excited then you're one of my favorite humans. I know that sounds like a really big statement, but you know, everybody here, I interview lots of people. I like a lot of people you really are. Life-giving like, whenever I'm around you, I just am. I want to hang out with you and Donna more because you two are just both on fire. There's something about you that like, is always ready to go. Like let's in the name of your new book, rest in war. I'm like, I don't even know how perfect that is for you because you're so easy. And yet it does feel like we're always about to go to war when I'm with you.
Yes.
Love that. Yeah. Tell everybody about your family and kind of what you're doing right now.
We'll do that and thank you, Jenny. We feel the same about you guys and we should hang out more like, uh, but, uh, yeah, we are not in Texas. We, we are Texans, uh, my amazingly talented wife, Donna, we have three kids that are, uh, two girls and a boy that are nine, eight and six. So we tell people we're tired but happy. But we live in Washington DC. We've been here for five years now and we launched Passion City Church DC, about three and a half years ago. So we live right in the district and minister among some pretty amazing people and crazy days. And we love it. It's such a gift to be a part of Passion and to be in DC. It's crazy, but we love it.
So we're talking about the season, what it means to be a healthy person. And so, I mean, this is, it feels like it's right on topic for you. And we know that that doesn't stop with uprooting sin in our lives that we're talking about. What does it mean to actually change and to live forward? And so talk a little bit about what that means to you. I mean, those words are so loaded. What does it mean to change?
HOW TO FLOURISH
Yeah, that's great. There's a lot you could say. I mean, I think of what Paul said to Timothy. He told him to flee useful less and pursue righteousness, love, joy, and peace. Along with those who call out to the Lord out of the pure heart. And I love that because it's one movement. I want you to go Timothy, but it has these two parts. I want you to flee some destructive ways of thinking and ways of living. And I want you to pursue ways of thinking and living that promote intimacy with God and promote human flourishing at every level. So there's this constant movement for the people of Jesus away from certain things towards other things. And I tend to think of it, uh, Jennie, like, um, Genesis, like many, it was transformative for me, Genesis 2, looking at God's created intent for us. You know, he says he put the man in the garden to cultivate it and to keep it, you know, keep is a defensive word.
It's a, it's a fighting word. Uh, and you go, what's he keeping out of there? Well, there's a serpent on his way in and the next chapter. But cultivate is impose your will on the materials under your control and arrange them in a way that maximizes flourishing. Like that's what a gardener does. I didn't create these things, but, but I move around what I'm stewarding so that all life under my influence can maximally flourish. And I remember reading that and going, that's what I exist to do. So, yeah, there's this defensive, like you said, uproot sin, I got to get things out of my life, but a big impulse in me is how do I arrange the materials under my control so that my kids flourish, my wife flourishes, I flourish. And it's this endless invitation from God to create environments where we all cultivate an intimacy with him and other people.
And so there is that negative side, but you know, it's interesting when I, when I first bought a house, we, I mean, there was no grass, it was all weeds. That was it. And so I'm pulling all these weeds and you know, is that Texas A&M so it's all these lawn and turf management guys. And they were like, then you can pull all the weeds, but the best way to fight him is to prioritize the grass and just keep, keep planting it, watering it, fertilizing it, caring for it. And it will drive the weeds out, like focus on this cultivating. I'm like, man, you guys are preaching at me. So that's really my life. And so I'm giving you the biblical Bible verses we can get into specifics kind of personally, but I'm always on this adventure. I think all of us are to pursue that, which helps cultivate flourishing at every level under God.
THE LIGHT SWITCH
I think about the ways that looks throughout my life and even just, I think the history of the church, and I think we live, we are pendulum people, right? Like we tend to swing from one thing to another and oh no, you know, that's grace, you know, is everything. It's not legalism. And, and we just kind of go back and forth. And, and what I love about the book is this, this idea of shame, it's not motivated. Life changes, not motivated by shame. And yet what you're saying right now is it's not licensed to just coast and let the holy spirit do all the work because that's other language we use in church too. It's, it's this kind of cop out of it doesn't require anything from us. And so you really, I want you to speak to both because I think they're both taking that truth to far. Right. Which is what the enemy does so well.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I do think there's this wonderful sense of resting and our identity under God that I'm a child I'm dearly loved. That's part of the work is constantly positioning myself to, to receive that, which is true and believe it. And so there is a work to that. I've got how I position myself under him. And then how do I use every appointed means? That's what I love about Genesis, where the image of God and he's making, he's moving, he's doing. And we're meant to do the same, not for our glory, not just out of our strength, but by his strength for his glory. I am a moral agent in the world and I want to do something. And Jesus said that like what the parable of the talents Pragma teach them, make a profit, do something with what I gave you. And so I'm motivated by that, you know?
And I just think, um, you know, for me, I grew up under a sanctification model. That was you pray. And you're either entirely filled by the spirit, or you're not filled by the spirit and you are just a mess. And it was, it was like a light switch. You're either in, or you're out, you're either holy or you're a wreck. And there was no progress. And I remember JI Packer said it. He said that model simultaneously promises too much in too little. It promises too much. Like you can be wholly perfect in a moment and it promises to level, but there's no progress. And, um, I remember going to a class in seminary, on John Owen and crying in the back just because he was talking about life. Once you've received the grace of God, his progress and struggle, like it will always be a struggle. The enemy is always coming. He's he's always moving at you. As soon as you block this punch, you throw in another one. So there will always be a fight, but there can be progress. You can move forward. And so it sounds discouraging, but it's actually really encouraging. Cause I'm like, oh good. Cause I'm always struggling. So I'm not crazy. Great. That's good to know, like the struggle is always coming, but I can make real progress. I can advance. I can see some sins that feel huge decrease. I can't get rid of them, but I can make them way better. Like I can improve as a human. That's awesome.
So Donna and I bought a house here in DC. I'll tell the story really quick, but we bought this house. It had been abandoned for 20 years. Wow. And she had a, it was a porcelain doll factory, the downstairs.
So all these little porcelain doll heads and hair and for 20 years they did not age well. So I mean, it was just this terrifying, house of misfit dolls that we, uh, you know, released into the wild. But uh, I think about it now. And you're like a house is always needing maintenance. There's something always breaking this woodpecker was attacking my house today. So there's always work, but we are so far past terrifying dollhouse. So I'm like, look, it's always work, but there can be progress. And that was so life-giving to me, they're going up, I am a mess, but there can be substantial healing. That's an encouraging thought. And I love that.
ALIVE AND AWARE
I think what you're saying is so hopeful to people because it does feel like a lot of the language Paul uses specifically, Paul is so dramatic, right? It's like, you know, you see sinning. Like if you still sin, then you're not even a Christian know. There's just a lot of language that feels really intense. And what he means by that is, is loving to sin and, and staying in a place of sin where rather than fighting it. Right. So talk about that for a little bit, because it does feel like sometimes you read specifically Paul and you feel a lot of pressure or gosh, am I even a Christian, which I don't think is a bad question to ask, but at the same time, I think what you're saying is no, it's, it's that, and it's not going to be up into
Yeah. You know, I was just studying second Timothy and Paul is encouraging Timothy and he's using all this war. Imagery, be a good soldier, fight, the good fight, all that stuff. But he starts by talking about how much he loves him. I mean, the letter starts with I long to see you that I might be joy. He's like, I love you. And he's like, you have a sincere faith, just like your mom, just like your grandma did. And uh, and then every time it gives him a command, there's a resource he's like be strengthened by the grace, the kindness of Christ Jesus. And that one got me. So it's not just be strong in Jesus. He's like no passively be strengthened by the kindness of Jesus and then go fight. So he always starts from this place of reception and this acknowledgement of meatiness this image of yourself as a child.
And there's this dear love, like you're loved. I care about you. You're in the safety of the love of God and love of me. Now let's go let's ride. And he put, gives him this place of fullness and first jobs the same way first on terrifies people. Right. You know? Cause he was like, uh, no one, uh, born of God practices sin. And you're like, wait, what, what? You know? But then you go back to the top and he says, but if you say you're without sin, you're a liar. Oh, okay. So if you say you're without sin, you're sinning that's a lie. So you are a center. So what does this mean, John? And he's talking about you don't actively progressively enjoy what your king came to destroy. But uh, I always think of it like I'm saving Private Ryan, Jennie, like the, the beach scene, you know, um, uh, there's, there's two soldiers on a battlefield.
There's the kind that are serene while the bombs are going off. And there's a time kind of that are agitated and anxious and you go, what's the difference? Well, one is dead and one's alive. A dead person doesn't flinch When a bullet hits the wall, they don't jump. When a bomb goes off, it's the person who's alive. That is the most conscious of the battle. And so I talked to so many people that they're aware of their struggle with sin. They're aware of the fact that they're struggling and they think that struggle means they're not alive in Christ. Maybe I'm not really saved. And I'm like, no, actually it's the spiritually dead who aren't aware of the battle. Your struggle is one of your greatest evidences that you're actually alive because it's alive. People who struggle spiritually, dead people aren't bothered by sin. I guess it's fine. What I do, it's Wednesday. It's what I do on Wednesday. But, um, people who were alive in Christ suddenly become aware, there's this whole battle and I'm losing and I'm getting nailed. And you're like, yeah, but God is resource to you equipped you you're loved run with us and pursue along with us and let's go. And uh, that encourages me.
Is this a life message for you? I feel like it should be because I, I feel like you, even in your preaching, like you're kind of both these.
Yes. I mean, I was thinking about it today, Jenny, like, um, I wrote this the first part of what became this book 20 years ago, just, just by, I was living in Dallas and just struggling with like, what do I think about how God is working in my life? And, and it was so impactful for me to know, like the tragedies in my life don't have to define my story. Life is hard. That's how I feel the struggle, but there can be progress. It was so meaningful to me. And then we were going to the village church in its early days when Matt Chandler taken over his pastors, it was nuts. The whole place is crazy growing. There's no seat. And you know, there's like six services. So Matt would call like, Hey, can you preach for me? I'm like, no, dude. Like I can't keep my voice for six services, but I did three, three Sundays in a row for him.
And it was me writing this in real time. Like, I'm just going to share what God's doing in my life at this make-up nowhere. And to watch people resonate with it, their struggle, but progress. I was like, okay, this is something that's not just for men. This is hope that people need. And so someone just asked me today, how long have you been working on this book? I'm like, I don't know, two decades. Like not really, but like in my life. Yes. It's a message. And so, um, hopefully it did in a way that makes sense.
MISSING THE BIGGER STORY
I want to talk about your kids for a minute, because I think sometimes we can see this better in them than we do ourselves. But do you see them go to shame? Is that easy for them?
One of them, for sure. Yes, definitely. And it is interesting for me to see being the parent kind of to see, I don't say when people are like, I didn't know what love was. So you had kids, I'm like, that's not a fair state. Like Paul didn't have kids. And I think he figured out less, like he wrote first Corinthians 13, so don't overstate it, but it did become easier for me to understand God's fatherly love for me regardless of capacity or performance. When I saw my love for my kids and probably the most profound thing for me as it relates to this subject, generally with my kids is I thought about it, of like, what's the, what's the worst thing someone could do to me. It would be for them to cut the faith of one of my little daughters and tell them your dad's disappointed in you.
You're not enough. You're a failure. Like, like I imagine someone doing that and I get furious. And I think that is what the enemy does to us. That's the deception of James chapter 1 when he's talking about temptation says don't be deceived: every good and perfect gift is from your father above who, in whom there's changing or shifting. He's like the deception that the lie that launches a million sins is that your God is not a good dad who loves you. And uh, so much devastation comes at the backend of that lie. And so for me, seeing my children helps me go, man, I'm not going to commit the sin of having a low view of the fatherly love of God for band. And I want my kids to find it easier to believe in the fatherly love of God, because they're seeing it from me. They're seeing me be kind to them gracious and um, trying, you know.
You're in a very driven city, everybody around you is very driven, young church zealots moved to DC, right?
Yes they do!
So when you write a book out of your life and you're ministering to them and it's called rest and war, what do you picture the result being like, think of one of your people in, in your body and what would you want them to know or how would you want them to live because of this word?
Yeah. That's a great question. I'm definitely in a driven city and it's one where you can move from driven to disillusioned really fast because maybe the why is not significant enough for all the what's that you're doing. And I think meaninglessness stalks the millennial and younger, and I watched that for them, the loss of a bigger story. So they're searching for one and I want them to see the big story of you have a God who fought for you. And then he calls you into this great fight for the sake of others. It's not just about building your little kingdom for your power and your glory because you see someone get it and you go, what was it all for? And, uh, but you can use the gifts. God gave you to serve other people and, and, and you can do it in politics as public service, but it sort of rescues you from that tyranny of self absorption.
That's so common now, but if I can say no, my my gifts are for the common good to help others flourish. I've created an environment where the people around me I'm influencing flourished under God. I watched that put hope back in them. And uh, I just want that for them. I see a lot of people that are missing a bigger story. And so they're missing hope and all the anxiety and anger, you stay in it long enough, it becomes apathy. You just become numb. And I don't want, and I'm young people. I want them to be alive and I do love the city cause you don't have to, they're not donkeys. You got to kick to get moving. They're horses that are already running. I'm just trying to aim them at the best of all costs and let them know that they're loved at the very outset. You're not out here earning love. You already got it. And now we, we work to cultivate the love that's been given to us. So a lot of them here, it's funny. I'll tell you this. Um, when I first got here, I met a guy, he works at a newspaper here and I was just wanted to learn about cities. I said, man, tell me about DC. Like, what's it like? And he was like, well, it's a lot of young people with father wounds, desperately searching for approval from someone. I was like, whoa, I thought, I thought you were going to say like where the nicest coffee shops where it's like, I didn't know we were going this deep, but he's like, man, it's all of this effort is to fill a vacancy. And so boy, the city needs the gospel. So it's never boring, never boring to preach it here.
LIKE SHEEP
I think about this topic. And, and I remember one of my professors, one of my favorite ones used to always say embrace the tension. And I feel like there's a little bit of tension in this rust and war. And I think tension is hard to hold, right? Like it's a hard thing to navigate. And, and would you say that that is true and, and that it requires kind of both and to do with,
Oh yeah. I think it's the grace of God has to help us right. To hold together grace and truth. How do I hold together? What's true. But then love people. That culture is having a hard time with that. And then how do I run and maximize my gifts, but not burn out and rest. And that's where I think all the language of scripture of us being like children or like sheep is helpful. Cause you go, man, I need someone to guide me or I'll, I'll abuse. This I'll make a mess of this somehow. You know? So for me, you know, Jenny, I mean I ministers break. They break morally. They break emotionally because they tend to overextend. I broke physically. I literally broke my back cause I just never took breaks. Go, go, go, go, go, go. And, uh, had to spend months in recovery. And uh, I remember laying on the floor, I couldn't walk and thinking Psalm 23, he makes me lie down in green pastures. And I thought, man, I just never thought of that as like a violent, but, but over the course of months he restored my soul. He's like, why are you doing what you're doing? And I realized when the Lord is my shepherd, there will be days like Jesus, where you minister all day and all night. And then the next day you'll retreat into the wilderness and sit and the approval and delight of your father. But it's only when the Lord is shepherding you. So whenever people who know Jesus be like, and I'm so busy, whatever, I'm like, then it's the Lord shepherding you? Or is your ego or your insecurity because when something else is shepherding, you, you're going to break. Like it's just not going to work. You know?
WALK ELEGANTLY THROUGH THE BATTLEFIELD OF LIFE
Is there somebody in your life that comes to mind when you think of these two words lived out in that tension? I think it's a road, but I think you're going to say thee's a lot, but I was about to say, I think it's a rare, beautiful thing to, to live out of both urgency and rest.
Oh, I think it's absolutely rare. I say a lot because you know, one of the things I think about a lot for me, Jenny, is I've just had the benefit of so many great mentors. So whenever I preach, I'm like, this is a stewardship of what's been given to me, but I have one friend. Yeah. He was a sex addict, terrible devastation in his life from bad choices that, that stemmed from a very traumatic childhood. But when I met him, he was older and just had that presence of someone who has been in a long, hard fight and was enjoying a hard one piece. He was just the most, even keeled, like, so in touch with his frailty. But, but didn't use as an excuse to sort of stew in it. He was like, no, I can be honest about my sin. Even in the moment of has said that because I was insecure.
I'm like, wow, you're just so like confessing your frailty, but you don't dwell on it. You have this action oriented posture where you go, I can acknowledge the pain of my past. I can acknowledge the wrong things I did today, but I don't let those destroy me. I actually, by sloughing off these resentments, I keep the cycle short. I don't spend years doing it. Resentment. I process release and move forward. I'm like this guy, we had a counselor tell Donna and I this lunch. He said, you want to walk elegantly to the battlefield of life. And this is that friend. I'm like, you're in touch with your depravity, but it doesn't run your story. You walk elegantly to the battlefield of life and I'm trying to be that.
YES! I think all of us are. And I think there is I, what I love about it is that rest is so essential for the urgency that I think a lot of us feel right now in ministry and for the world. And so will you just pray for the people listening that think either one is hard, right? Maybe they've been living in legalism and shame or maybe they've been living in license and not actually participating in the work that God wants them to just pray for both, both people that are listening right now.
Absolutely. Well, father, I want to thank you for everybody who is listening to us and just pray. You blessed what Jenny is doing here, what you've put in her hands. And I pray for every person who's listening. They are beautiful because they're made in your image. And I pray. They would know that regardless of capacity or activity, they have value in your image and their pay. They would rest in that. And everybody is desperately broken because of sin. This does not isolate you from us. It just proves you're one of us. But thank you, God that you have done something decisive about that. So I pray for anybody who hasn't put their faith in Jesus. This could be that moment where they say, I need a shepherd. I am harassed and helpless. I am a sheep without a shepherd. And so may the compassionate shepherd Jesus come and lead me. And then Lord, I pray we would follow him and follow him into the fight of using the gifts you gave us to create flourishing in the world. I pray none of us would slump back into watching hours, tick by and waste the precious moments you've given us to influence our friends, our neighbors, our peers, our family for good. You've given us a mouth to speak and hands to move. May we be a force for good in the world, redemptive and our actions and activities. And then Lord help us know how to do what Paul told Timothy to do just an every moment say, but, uh, God, I need to be strengthened by your kindness and your grace because I fail a million times and Lord helped me, uh, never in the least to slack in, in my fight against my corruption. No matter how unsuccessful I may be.
Uh, I just pray, Lord, we wouldn't get discouraged. We all struggle. We will struggle, but there's progress and much good can be done when we don't lose heart. So I pray Lord. Some would be motivated to move, to make a difference in the world. And I pray others would be motivated to sit and to rest and to bask in the unfiltered, unmitigated love of their having their father. So help us find that rhythm God, by your grace, we need it in the world. Needs people who live like that. And may we be counted among them and Jesus name, Amen.