Riaz Meghji - Virtual Human Connection

 

Introduction:

Welcome to Beyond Speaking with Brian Lord, a podcast featuring deeper conversations with the world's top speakers.

Brian Lord:

Hi, I'm Brian Lord, your host of the Beyond Speaking Podcast. And today we have with us Riaz Meghji, who is a human connection expert. He is a long time TV veteran. He is the author of the book, Every Conversation Counts, he's done a whole lot of stuff. We'll get into that. And he's also one of the perfect people for the time we're in with virtual human connections. So Riaz, thank you so much for coming on and joining us here.

Riaz Meghji:

Good to see another human in person. [Inaudible]

Brian Lord:

Now you've been somebody who's been on camera pretty much your whole life, you know 20 years you know, hosting shows MTV Canada The Breakfast Show doing so many of these different things. How has that sort of prepared you for this new world as somebody who is making human connections in this virtual world?

Riaz Meghji:

You know, the, the number one thing of the camera of, I don't know what camera we're on right now, right here is the eye contact. Like that is the number one thing. When, when you have that experience of working as a broadcaster, you're trained to look directly at one person through that lens. And I've found in virtual meetings or virtual presentations, there's still the tendency because we want to read the body language of somebody else. If, if I'm talking to you right here, and then now I'm reading Brian on the screen and then I may look disinterested and if I do it, so I think it's the comfort with the camera. And when that green light, if it's on or red light on your computer, turns on there's this psychological thing that happens. And I would see this with leaders. When I interview them is in the green room. It's all cool, calm and relaxed. And then when the camera's on it's, how am I sitting? I'm now being judged. Am I saying the right thing? And then we start thinking about ourselves and forget about the person in front of us and how we can serve them. So I think that that repetition over 20 years has provided a bit of comfort to remove the distraction, focus on the subject in front of me or the audience one-on-one and then just give them the best experience possible.

Brian Lord:

Now this is a bit off, cause obviously we're talking more about, you know, human connection and you know, the five different ways to sort of build that connection. But you also work a lot with executives and you see these companies, how they've adapted to this new world. What is some advice you can give, whether you're a manager connecting with people online, or you know a CEO running a company, what advice would you give to them? In addition to what you just shared?

Riaz Meghji:

The number one thing that I've seen with, especially building trust and connection with teams virtually in this hybrid reality is how leaders can call people up, not call them out and in a virtual meeting, for example, one of the biggest pain points I hear is, well, how do I get people to turn the cameras on? Then I can hear them, but are they multitasking? What is going on and establishing expectations beforehand and allowing somebody to succeed with it. If we were going to have, you know, a big team meeting and we were pitching someone together to give them that notice to say, Hey, we're going to have this experience. We'd love to see your camera's on because we want you to participate. We'd love for your feedback or say you and I have other team members, Eric, you don't see a production guru here. If we want an Eric to participate, let them know beforehand, that "Eric, we want to see you. We want to hear you on this," so he can prepare his backdrop and he can prepare what he's going to say. And I almost liken it to what you see on a traditional newscast. You would never see a six o'clock news cast with one person the whole time telling every single story. You're you have emotional contrast with storytelling. You have visual contrast with, with well, their photos or video. You're going to throw two, but you have a bit of production saying, Eric, we're going to come to you about 10 minutes in. So just be ready and let them know beforehand. So nobody's caught off guard and then it allows everybody to succeed in this medium because it can be unpredictable. And the other thing is roll with the punches because no matter how much we plan this, no matter how much you hardwire your internet in or upgrade the connection you've got anything can happen. And having worked in live television for over a decade over the course of, you know, these two decades interviewing people, some of the most memorable moments were when things went sideways and your true character is revealed when that happens. And then people appreciate the humanness that it's not about perfection. It's just, we're doing the best thing we can do. And we're going to roll with it to make the experience as good as possible for people watching.

Brian Lord:

So with a lot of people, you know, it's that first step is getting comfortable on camera. And the second one production, you know, different things to add in are really intimidating. What's the first thing someone should add in, if they're doing a presentation for their group or for for their whatever audience they may have.

Riaz Meghji:

I believe audio, audio is more important than video. I know this medium is, is so valuable to, to build connection and trust. So they see you, they can read your at your body language, but if your video started crapping out, but your audio is crisp, you will still keep your audience because they can hear your message. And some people th they, they are used to having no camera on, but if it's the reverse where you've got these beautiful visuals, amazing lighting like we have in your awesome backdrop, but they can't hear you, you've lost them. And I would say double down on making sure that audio is going to be as tight as possible and creating a space that you're going to be comfortable in. You know, some people will say, should I sit, should I stand? I believe, understand where your most powerful, where your most natural to, to deliver what you can deliver.

Brian Lord:

So what are some of the best things you've learned? So you've interviewed leaders in business and politics in entertainment and sports, you know, over this, you know, two decades. What are some of the most important things you've learned during that time of your life?

Riaz Meghji:

Well, one of the habits in the book, Every Conversation Counts really talks about how we listen without distraction and the notion of any interview that if it's a new client or, you know, it's an exercise like this because podcasting is so big is the idea of over-preparing to improvise because that preparation of reading the blog post and, and, and maybe reading the book, they had a movie that they were in. That's going to give me confidence that, you know, I understand I care about them. But they ability to listen lean in and improvise in that moment, because you might give me something that I wasn't expecting. Like I remember the first time we met and you were telling me about your personal life and your children. And I was evolving to that about the idea of, you know, adoption and family, and that stuck out to me. And I'm like, I didn't, I didn't see that on, on the blogs at all, but it allowed us to have a genuine conversation. So over-preparing to improvise, I think is so big. And anytime you talk about listening and the idea of distraction, especially virtually it's such a challenge because the research shows that like, we are too smart for our own good, like our brains can absorb four to 500 words per minute, yet us in a conversation or the average speaker is going at a rate of 125 to 150 words per minute. So if we are not really intentional about giving someone our undivided attention and getting drawn away with technological distraction, the emotional distraction, if we disagree, or maybe just get caught up in daydreaming, we could really miss that moment with somebody. So I think it's one becoming aware of how we listen how we give someone our attention and then audit ourselves and pick these things out that get in the way one-on-one or one by one. And then once we heightened our level of awareness, just be prepared to improvise in the moment, because you never know, I've found the greatest interviews where when I discovered something that you couldn't find on Google, do you have a,

Brian Lord:

An experience or a story that goes along with that of, you know, whether it's preparation or listening that really opened up something for you besides my little conversation or our conversation a couple years ago?

Riaz Meghji:

Yeah. There was a very powerful interview that happened three, I guess, depending on when you watch this, I'll just say it was in 2017. And I walked into the green room and there were two leaders. One of them, his name was Jim Treliving. And in Canada, I'm from Vancouver, BC, and Canada. Jim is the chairman of Boston pizza international. And he's a popular judge on Dragon's Den which in the States, you guys have Shark Tank and his wife, Sandy Treliving she is like a force for good because they focus a lot in the mental health space. And she is a director on the board for the center for addiction and mental health. So that day I walked into the green room had never met them. We exchanged formalities. And one of the questions when I talk about over-prepare to improvise- a cold stop, I would just say, "So, you know, what's on your mind?" And I, I would always pause because the things they would give me, even if I had researched it would allow me to prioritize their priorities of what their message is and what they want to get across. And they started talking about how the mental health campaign, they were championing- championing mental health advocates in Canada that had overcome this great adversity. So they were telling their personal story. And when I asked them what they really wanted to share on-air, because you know how it is in broadcasting, you only have five to six minutes. Max. We get out there on camera. Sandy starts opening up about her brother who lived with schizophrenia and what that meant to her. And Jim started talking about his life as an art, his past life as an RCMP officer. And then he takes it one step further saying he saw the challenges of mental health on the front line, and we needed to pay more attention to this and this era we're living in now of mental health. I mean, you can't see the challenge that people are going through, and sometimes they might hide it, but Jim took it one step further. And I'll never forget this moment where he said there was a conversation he had with his nephew who was 16 to 17 years old at the time. And Jim lived in Alberta, Canada, and his nephew came up to him and said, "Jim, can I use your gun to go hunting?" And Jim obliged. And that nephew use Jim's gun to take his own life. That was never online. That wasn't something that he openly shared, but he felt safe in the space. And you could hear a pin drop. This was for the show. We were live on TV for Breakfast, television, Vancouver, if you could hear a pin drop in that studio, but he felt safe enough in that conversation to open up and share that. And he asked a question that I think resonates to this day. He said, "How did I fail to recognize the signs?" And that always stuck with me as a leader to have the courage to go first about something that's impacted you in your life. And they use that in a powerful way to transform from tragedy to a sense of triumph, to empower people to open up and talk about mental health. But that question "Are you recognizing the signs in your people" I think is so relevant now more than ever as everybody's battling their own set of challenges in this remote work lifestyle that we're caught up in.

Brian Lord:

I think that's really important, too. One of the things you talk about, I know we're kind of skipping ahead to number five, but, you know, making people feel like a, I don't know if celebrity is the right word, but like that they're important that they are meaningful enough to you to share those things. And sometimes it's, it's in an interview format, sometimes it's just two people talking. And you know, you talk about loneliness as well. Where do you feel like leaders make the best connection there? How can they set their people up to feel like they're that important enough where they can share these vulnerabilities?

Riaz Meghji:

Yeah. So there's two things that stand out to that, of how they can share those vulnerabilities. There's a great psychological term known as the pratfall effect, where if a leader wants to create this space of psychological safety and they go first, and this is something I champion about putting aside perfection and really going first with what's going on, that can be a powerful exercise to create connection and bring people closer to us. But under the pratfall effect, if we haven't established our point of authority or earn that respect first, that could create a sense of distance and be considered an overshare. If people are questioning our competence as leaders. So it's almost, how can we convey credibility before vulnerability? I think that's really important in this space. And I think of the example of remote work, where somebody is joining an organization and they're a part of the group and they haven't met anybody in person. And their first day on the job can be really intimidating. They could feel alienated, they could feel stressed out. But if they're looking to that leader in the group, in the meeting saying, "I remember the first time I started here, this one was going through my mind. I was so anxious." It eliminates that sense of I'm alone with this problem it's "Oh, okay, they went through this too." This is okay to open up and share. So going first, I think is a big part of it and being intentional with documenting people's details. I mean, in meetings, we're great with this. We're always taking notes to say, Hey, okay, who's who, you know who's transcribing, what's happening here, but on a personal level, I think one of the greatest compliments we can give to one another is, "Hey, do you mind if I take notes?" And it shows you that person one, you're listening to what they're giving you is of immense value. And if we're able to follow up with them a week, a month, a year down the line, and instead of saying, Hey, Brian, hope you're well. But if we're saying, Hey, Brian, you know, how's the family, man. How were the kids during this pandemic? I've been thinking about you during this time. It personalizes the fact that you know what I care about you. I listened to you and do you know what you can trust me. We're in this together. And I think those simplicities have a way of elevating somebody's importance to say, Brian saw me here. He remembered what's going on with me. And you know what? I do matter. I am important in this situation.

Brian Lord:

And that's one of the things that I know you and I have shared, you know, a couple of years ago is just with family and everything else. How has... Now my wife doesn't always listen to me. How, how did the, how, how much of this have you learned from your wife? How much is, has she gotten from you and have you kind of move through this time together?

Riaz Meghji:

I love this question because my wife was an entertainment lawyer. She is queen of quality control! But before I got married, one of the best things somebody said to me that whether it's a marriage partnership business partnership, or just with your friends, they said to me, do you want to be right? Or do you want to be in a relationship? And there's a great deal that the two greatest things I've learned from interviewing leaders for a living is one, they have a sense of discipline. That they're willing to do the work. And they have a beginner's mentality that in the expert's mind, there are few options in the beginners. There's infinite possibility. Keeping that in mind has kept, has kept a really positive relationship with my myself and my wife. And it's tough at times when you disagree, when we're both working from home remotely, trying to shift out of each other's space you know, that's been a big part of this, of just open communication and, and, and honesty. And I think the second part is the humility that I may think it's going to work a certain way, but the beautiful thing about our relationship is that she deals with high-end clients and, you know, egos are involved in the entertainment world of how to disarm somebody and get them on your side. Like one of the habits we talk about in this book are really about having a meeting with assertive empathy and acknowledging somebody and discovering before you're quick to dismiss. And I think there's, there's a great deal of anxiety right now. People are triggered and they're very defensive. So it's, it's been a great learning experience with that. Some days are better than others to be honest, but it's always just staying open and, and sharing the truth. And if you do that there's, there's no harbored resentment. It's just, how do we work through this? So we're on the same side of the problem instead of, Hey, it's me versus you.

Brian Lord:

I love, I love how you that phrase of assertive empathy. I know that's one of your other keys. Can you walk through that because I'm almost like, oh, aggressive empathy, but assertive? What is... So but what is a sort of empathy and how do you build it?

Riaz Meghji:

It really puts the relationship first logic second, and under the ideas, how can we act and lead with a sense of discovery? Sometimes if we have to relay negative news, we get caught up in how difficult that is for us of having to witness somebody's reaction of how that's going to be. So assertively checking ourselves to understand that this could be difficult news for somebody there could be resistance here, but if we can lead in a way with a sense of discovery and putting the relationship first, and for example, using expansive questions that start with a how or what instead of a why because the why could come across as aggressive condescending and lead to somebody else being defensive, but you know, how, how do you feel about what I just shared with you? You know, what do you need right now? What would it take for this to work for you? It shows that I'm wanting to listen to you first and understand it. And then when they've shared something, staying in it with them and really labeling the sense of emotion that they may be reeling back to you of, Hey, okay. It sounds like this, it feels like this is what it looks like. And then, you know, allowing them to say, yes, that's exactly what's going on. So they know that they've been acknowledged, they've been heard. And then at that point, transitioning to the logic part of it, of focusing on what we can agree on of, okay. So what is the real challenge here for you and what is your ideal scenario look like? And then when they start sharing those types of solutions, that allows us to find the common ground. Cause there's always going to be common ground, but when we come in and we could be emotionally distracted, if we disagree and then shut off, then it's a competition. It's not a collaboration. So the listening piece, the acknowledgment piece, and then focusing on the logic of how do we do this together allows us to really operate in positive ways. And, you know, there was great research from the University of Wisconsin and this came out like maybe seven, eight years ago that talked about how to create a safe space in difficult conversations. And they said, the number one tool that you could do is use is, is the use of "I" statements. Like, "Brian, you know, I'm feeling frustrated with what's going on, you know I I'm feeling, I'm feeling exhausted with our process. You know, what's the question I feel to ask to understand your reality how could I show up for you more?" And this takes ownership as opposed to, well, "You always do this, you know, you need to calm down, just relax." And as soon as you put that on somebody else, it heightens the tension. So disarm it by really putting the relationship first and then introducing the logic that allows us to collaborate in productive ways.

Brian Lord:

So one thing I've always found interesting is people who are experts in a certain area you know, with you with human connection, that sometimes they have a natural ability for certain things, and sometimes they're terrible at it. So out of your five keys, I think we've, I think we've covered most of them here, but where, which one of the five is the most natural for you and which is the one that required the most work to, to put into place.

Riaz Meghji:

Mm okay. So out of the five and I'll list out the five quickly, just to recap. So listening without distraction, make your small talk bigger, put aside your perfect persona, be assertively empathetic, and make people feel famous. For me being the interviewer, the listening piece I feel has been the skill that's allowed me to succeed and really connect with people and draw out moments like I explained with Jim and Sandy Treliving. The challenge, I still to this day, the assertive empathy is something that I got to work on because if I'm not in the right mind frame or I haven't had a good night's sleep or irritated going in you know, I remember doing an interview with Dr. John Gray from, you know, Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, and we talked about this very thing about conflict and difficult conversations. And he said, at some point, if it gets heated, he's like, just stop talking, just stop talking. He's like check yourself and own the fact that you, you know, what, you just need to take a break where you could recalibrate, understand your thoughts remove the emotion and then come back in a positive space to get to where you want to get. And it's so simple to say, "stop talking, but sometimes it's hard to practice because we get defensive and our egos can take over. And I think this is something I try to work on every single day. And sometimes, you know, especially in the remote world being completely real, it's difficult, you know, my wife and I share a space together. It's difficult to do this. And for people that are sharing a space, they have kids you're exhausted. You're grateful you have family. And you're trying to find that balance. And I think assertive empathy is one of the greatest ideas and skills that we all need right now given the polarized climate that we live in on so many different issues.

Brian Lord:

How do you make small talk bigger?

Riaz Meghji:

It starts with the approach, like when we introduced two words that say small talk, I guarantee half of the audience watching this. Maybe you're watching this right now and thinking, woof, I dread it. I dread, I don't want it to have anything to do with it. And I think that's the way we approach small talk altogether that it is a defense mechanism instead of an opportunity, because if we break it down, small talk in many ways is a defense mechanism, prevent us from the embarrassment of getting emotional in front of someone we don't know, or maybe just protecting us to avoid the emotion someone might show if we trigger them and we're not ready for it. And you know, the thing that I say with small talk is less info, more emotion. Like if I have no context of the person in front of me as an interview where, you know, we get the chance to prepare, you know, read a book, watch a movie, do, do what we need to do to understand the subject. But the late psychiatrist, Gordon Livingston did amazing work on the happiness equation. And when I dialed into his work, there were three ideas of how to make small talk bigger if you have no context and it's a complete stranger in front of you. And he found that the happiest people had three things in common, they had something to do. They had someone to love and they had something to look forward to. Each of these have a high emotional component on a personal level. And sometimes when we were asking questions, you know, I talk about the expansive questions of how we tap into that emotion, how, and what allows people to open up with, you know, how they're feeling, how they're thinking why, obviously, as we mentioned, could lead to a conference confrontation if it's you know, considered condescending, but who, when and where are simply informational transactions, it's like the conversation comes to a cold stop, but if we're able to tap into emotion with those three examples from, you know, Livingston or using the how and what that really opens things up and then asking for stories, not just answers because that's, you know, that's where the magic happens. You know, I think the stories people share, I think about the story you shared with Robin Williams and booking him and in his writer saying he had to have homeless people that come in and work on the production that stays with me. Cause that's a powerful story about human connection. He's not just about him as a speaker or performer coming on stage. He's about the greater good that everyone can be elevated and there's something to be learned from people from all walks of life.

Brian Lord:

Riaz, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your stories about human connection and, and what you've learned from leaders and how you're affecting leaders and managers today. So we really appreciate you coming on and sharing that.

Beyond Speaking is hosted by Brian Lord and produced by Eric Woodie