Content > Comparing with Jamie Ivey
March 11, 2021
Jennie Allen
Bible teacher, founder of IF:Gathering
This is something I've wanted to do for awhile now - I've got Jamie Ivey on the podcast!
Hi Jennie! This is fun!
This is fun. I'm switching the tables on you. Because you've had a podcast a lot longer than me and I've been on there a few times and I'm really excited to have you on here. I'm excited about two books that you're coming out with - I want to start with Complement because I'm so excited about this. It's so needed. I've known you and Aaron for a long time and I love your view on marriage. It's so similar to Zac and I - that must be exciting to be doing a marriage book with your husband.
It's so exciting! It's also a little scary too because marriage is so sacred and so beautiful and it's also so difficult and hard. Our heart behind this book is not that we have it figured out, but we just want to do this together and walk together with each other and talk about how God has a beautiful plan for marriage. Within our culture and our churches honestly it gets a little distorted and confusing and we just want to go back to the beauty that God created in marriage. We're super excited!
One of the things I love about it and why I will recommend it to everybody is because we are both so blessed to be people who get to submit to our husbands. They lead us and both of them call the shots - we've talked about this - but they release us into the world to build God's kingdom. I think it's going to be so refreshing and encouraging to see what y'alls relationship looks like in that context. The book we're going to talk about today and what we're talking about in the series is simple faith. We're talking about the chaos of everything that's happening, but the peace we can have within it, if we just do these simple things well. What we're talking about today is the idea that we've all been given gifts, we all are made uniquely, and this is what your last book was about. It's still very recent. Talk about this message for you and where it came from.
WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO OFFER?
This message of "we've all been given gifts" feels so churchy. Like okay what's your spiritual gift? Remember when we were younger and we would take the test to find out what our spiritual gift was? Now we get older and we're asking ourselves, "what do I have to offer?" Social media plays a part, but this is not a new conversation. You look around and you start to think everyone else is doing "big things" and kind of lose focus as to where you fit in. I found that I was having a lot of conversations with women who were thinking they didn't have anything to offer - the church, the kingdom, their community, the world. Or they would look around and think they have something, but they don't know if it's as good as what she has. So she's better than me. I'm sure you see it as well when you talk to women you're ministering as well. I don't want myself or anyone to get to the end of their life and look back and go wow, I wasted so much time because I just wanted to be like somebody else. I think we're losing the beauty of how God created us uniquely and that we all matter to the Kingdom. I hate that women are struggling with this right now. The project really was just, hey, let me just tell you that I want you to be you and God wants you to be you because he created you! If he created you with your gifts, passions, and talents, he surely wants to use them right where you are.
I'm thinking of moments in you and I's friendship where you were grappling with this. You were trying to figure out what this looks like for you. Did this come from a personal place for you?
100%. I always say I stumbled into this career that I have of podcasting and book writing. I've always been ministering to people in the church - my husband is a pastor, I love Jesus, we love our local church. Since the moment I've started following Jesus, I've loved the local church I've been a part of. What I do now in this public ministry just kind of happened. It's a long story, but I never set out to do this. When I first started traveling and speaking and writing books, I would just think, "I don't know if I can do this?" and "I don't know why they invited me to be here." My husband Aaron would often remind me and say, "they invited you because they want you." Women can start to feel like, "I don't know how I got to this table." Whether that is in your local PTA, a community organization you run, or for me a public stage. I really had to lay down a lot of reverse pride, like "oh I'm not worth this" or "I can't do this" and trust that the reason I got invited is because they wanted me here. It wasn't like I accidentally got an invitation. That was hard for me for a lot of years. Only by the grace of God can I now walk into a space, whether that's at my kid's school or in an interview with someone on my podcast that I'm super nervous about, and say, "I can do this because God gifted me like this and I'm going to be faithful with it."
WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF USING OUR GIFTS?
We're talking this week about not being a victim and using the things God has given us. The purpose of that is that we don't get stuck. The purpose is so that we live out God's plan for us, that we don't miss what he has for us. How does that perspective matter in this conversation?
I think about a lot of my friends who have gone through hard seasons in life, myself included. There's this sense that we can think, "man, I must be weak if this is hard for me" or "there must be something wrong with me" or "I must be the problem." I think we could switch that to say, "how is God going to use this season for the Kingdom?" There's a lot of times we can get stuck and think, "well, I guess I just won't be able to do that. I guess this is just who I am." Instead of looking and thinking, "how are you going to use this right now?" I think about suffering and trials. We have a really good mutual friend, Katherine Wolf, who has taken something that she could've easily said, "you know what? I'm out. I'm out of the race. I'm out of the Kingdom fight. Because of the really crappy situation I find myself in." Instead she uses her situation for the glory of God. She does everything she can with the life she has been given. I think about her often. She is such a visible reminder to us women who are fighting for the kingdom to be moved into our areas. Just because we walk through trials and sufferings isn't a ticket out of the race. We don't get disqualified or put out - we're still in! I want that! We don't know what's around the corner, nobody does. I want to be prepared for that. No matter what happens, I still want to be in the fight. I just think about being in the fight. I don't want to not be in the fight. Because I think when we get out of the fight is when we kind of just give in. I don't want to be that way.
What you're talking about reminds me of that book by Tim Keller, The Joy of Self-Forgetfulness. I think that's what we're saying here. If we can think about what God has for us to do out here and go do it, we're not as worried about whether we're qualified or made for it or not. We're just out there doing what God has called us to do and meeting the needs in front of us. What I love is I've seen that in you. You have such a fire for people and for the truth of God's word. You are out there doing it every single day. You are such an encouragement to so many people! So I love that you conquered whatever distraction, insecurity, or fear that held you back and moved through that. I can't imagine life without you. So many times people ask me who my people are, who are my running buddies, and you are so high on that list. I just feel so kindred with you. I feel like we're both doing our thing, but there's something really special about people who are lugging it out beside you. We all need that! We need people to beat this over us and encourage us and tell us what it is we are good at. This is a communal project.
I think when you look around, even at the relationship you and I have, you have to think, "who's in the fight with me?" Listen - we are in a very fight-driven culture right now. It's us vs. them and this idea vs. this idea. But for me, it's who's in the fight for lives, for the Kingdom. It's fun when you find those people. I want to encourage women in that as well. Community is so important! You can't run this race alone. It's too exhausting to do alone. I'm grateful when I think about the ministry that you've done and the way our friendship has built and that we would both fight for the truth of the gospel in each other's lives and in our communities. Even though we don't live in the same city anymore! Which is sad.
GOING SMALL
Okay, now this is a big question I get a lot: I want you to talk to the people about the difference in big and small. You're not talking about everybody going out and writing a book or doing something, like Katherine Wolf, a major national ministry. What are you saying? What's the call to action?
I think the call to action is to serve God with what you have right where you are. There's this misconception that we have to go somewhere, and God may call some of you somewhere - I hope he does. Please follow him and go! But most of us are going to serve God right where we are in the mundane where he's planted us. So many people can get caught up in thinking this isn't enough, this must not matter, etc. But God needs you right where you are. I always tell this story of this one time when Aaron and I went on a trip to Sedona, AZ. When we were driving from Phoenix up to Sedona and as we're driving, we saw all those ginormous cacti. The ones with the big arms that are huge and beautiful. We're admiring them on the way because we don't see those in Central Texas. We keep driving and the further we get up into Northern Arizona, the less we see. We were with a tour guide looking around at some things and he pointed that out. He asked us if anyone knew why, and I was like no but I would love to know! He said it's because they can't survive there. They were never meant to be there. As beautiful as they are, they can't thrive in Northern Arizona because they'll freeze and topple over and die. I remember I had this moment where I thought, that is exactly what God is saying to so many people. Myself included! "Jamie, I have put you where you are because you are going to thrive there. Because I need you there." I had these moments when I was a stay at home mom, I don't know if you had these moments Jennie, where I would think, "is this it? Is this all my life is amounting to?" Looking back I think, yeah, that was it, and it was beautiful and wonderful. That was ministry to my children. My life looks different now but I want women to quit looking at other women's lives and look at their life and serve him with what they have, right where they are.
There's work to do! It's easy to get discouraged and one reason I wanted to have Jamie on is it's really easy to just get fixated on the circumstances of our day. Rather than to be change agents in our places. The vision for IF:Gathering and Jamie you've been a part of it beside me in that trench since the beginning - the vision was always unleashing women in their places: in their neighborhoods, on their college campuses, in their workplaces to make disciples who make disciples. The vision was never everybody going to start some awesome non-profit or ministry. Life change happens in coffee shops and local churches and across living rooms and small group Bible studies and serving in your youth group. That was a huge passion for you. To tell women that they're doing a good job and where you are matters.
Everyone probably has an example if you think back on your journey with Jesus. For me, there was this moment when someone was on a stage preaching at a conference and my heart was stirred, my affections were moved, the Holy Spirit moved. I want to follow Jesus. That woman on stage - really cool full circle thing when I got to meet her a couple years ago. But my growth with the Lord happened with people whose names you would not know - they've never written books, they've never been on a podcast, they've never traveled the world and spoken at a conference. They just taught everyone that came through the doors in their church. I think most people's lives look like that and those people matter. Someone would easily look at Jennie and I and say, "you know what that's really easy because you have this big thing." I just want to pull back for a minute and say, I'm faithfully serving God now with where he has put me, but when I taught 5th grade Sunday school for years at my church, I was faithfully serving God then. Nothing is bigger and nothing is better - it just looks different. It's not like you and I are like oh well this is how we serve - we write books, we do podcasts, and we speak. Nope. We serve God right where we are with the gifts he's given us.
I love what you're saying so much. It makes me a little teary because I feel like sometimes - let's just have a really candid conversation about this - I wonder if we weren't more in our lane doing the smaller stuff. I told Zac this year when we were doing our planning that I've got to always keep these girls I'm discipling in real life. We have to make sure we're serving at our church. All these things that really ground me and because I just enjoy it! And I just wonder if we're going to get to heaven and realize that what really lasted and mattered was the small stuff. That's not to dismiss the work we do - we wouldn't be doing this work if we didn't think it helped and encouraged people and built the kingdom. I would've quit by now! But I'm even tempted to do the opposite. Jesus always was kind of going back to the small. Maybe that's just to encourage all of you out there. There's no doubt that Jesus loved the small. What I have to wonder and wrestle with is what did he think the big was useful for? How do we use it today? I haven't felt convicted to the point of shutting it all down yet, but I think about it.
The beautiful thing about IF:Gathering is you do a great job of explaining this - your job is not to bring thousands of women together and entertain them for a weekend and then be done. Your desire and goal with IF has always been to equip women to disciple other women in their churches. What I love about what you guys do is it's not just that one weekend. It's not just some entertainment for one weekend. You're continually providing resources for discipleship throughout the whole entire year. You are totally equipping and unleashing a generation to disciple in their own churches, and I love it.
So are you friend. I know from living in the same town as you too that that's a huge heart of yours. You and Aaron are on the ground. I think about your Bible study in your living room and how much you've loved that.
A ton of joy. It's my favorite day of the week. For people who do what we do publicly, that private stuff is really where life is given for me. I wouldn't do it if I didn't think it was beneficial for the Kingdom and that it didn't matter, but those Wednesday mornings are really fruitful and important for me.
USING YOUR GIFTS IN THE MIDST OF A PANDEMIC
What I want you to hear and I know what Jamie wants you to hear is you have some things that are useful for God, so don't be distracted by the million ways the enemy wants to shut us down! How have you seen the enemy in general, currently with Covid and quarantine, shutting women doing and discouraging them?
Oh gosh. The last few months have just been so difficult for our entire world and country and state and community. Loneliness has been a really big thing and I appreciate the way you speak on this as well. Fighting this battle of loneliness and being disconnected. I think a lot of people have been feeling like what they're bringing to the table isn't useful now because we're not meeting. The things that have brought me the most joy in the past months have been seeing people and churches and women and organizations pivot and find new ways to connect with their churches, their leadership teams, their small groups, and their ministries. Although it's not our favorite thing in the world to be meeting in some of the ways we're meeting, but I really do love the people that have been intentional about still meeting and communicating and loving people. I really hope when we look back on this, we can see how God used this time to draw out things that wouldn't have normally been drawn out without 2020. My hope would be it wouldn't stop there, but that women would say, "how can I continue to serve at my church with what I have learned about myself?" I think looking back we're going to see the goodness that God is bringing from the difficulty of this year forsure.
I agree! I do think we're going to come out of this and everybody is going to be needed. I just think your book is so timely because we're going to come out of this and there are going to be lots of people who are just stuck. Emotionally, socially, spiritually stuck. We'll get our freedoms back, but there are going to be lots of people who are just so rattled and so shut down that they need the hope of the gospel, they need people around them fighting for and encouraging them. So it's such an important part of the work that God wants to do in our generation. A lot of you, all of you that follow Jesus, feel free to use your gifts and know who you are and know how to do that. And know that you have something to offer to your neighbors, to your churches, to the workplaces you find yourselves, to your college campuses. I have loved the last few years watching so many women just obey God. They just do the next thing. It's so crazy the stories they have of God partnering with them and the Holy Spirit moving and God doing great things around them. The book has been out for a few months, so tell me a few stories of how it has encouraged people.
One of the things is women really trusting that their voice matters. We talk about using your voice a lot - not just your physical voice but being able to stand up and speak about things. In a culture that's divided and everybody is screaming and yelling, I don't mean use your voice like that. I mean what are the words that you're using in your community, in your household, with your children, in your job. I think that people have started to realize that what they're saying, the ministry they have right where they are actually does matter. It means something. There's not this table that you're waiting to be invited to so you can be a part of ministry. The table is set. God has set the table for you and you're invited. The second thing I see is this whole idea is blooming where you're planted. But really getting a hold of the idea that you can do exactly what God wants you to do right where you are. Your ability to succeed - we all want success and to be faithful - is not determined by the number of people that you influence, but it's just determined by how well you steward the influence you've been given. People get confused and think if there's not a lot of numbers, whether that be social media followers or whatever, that they must not have that big of an influence. When really your influence is how well you steward it with the people who are right in front of you. That's been one of my favorite things to hear - people waking up to the fact that they are an influencer right where they are.
I love it. And I believe it is a contagious force for good. The bottom line is, we believe in you. We believe in God in you. That is how the world changes. It's not through massive movements or politics working out just right. It's through individuals in their places loving their people and its happened time and time again throughout history. I believe it is currently happening now. I would love to close with you speaking to that person that is so shut down. They've been in Covid and they were insecure and discouraged before Covid ever hit them. But now it literally feels like they're paralyzed and they don't know how to dream or that God has gifted them. So would you just speak right to them and encourage them?
I want to say that I see you, first of all. I understand. I know what it feels like. I want to encourage you to not just go buy this book. I want to encourage you to get into God's word. I don't mean that from a Christian-ese, churchy place. What I mean is that when you dive in and see the way God uses people throughout the whole Scriptures, his whole goal is to redeem them and bring them back to him. He loves you so much that he wants you to trust him with what he's given you. My encouragement to you if you're feeling this way is to really go back to the central part of God's love story with you. He wants to work good things in your life. Good things he's already planned in your life! Before you were even born, conceived, thought of, he was already dreaming things up for you. I also just want to say that you're not alone. Find community. Find a girlfriend you can talk to. Find someone you can be honest and real with, and you two can point each other back to the gospel time and time and time and time again.