Whitney Johnson - Disrupting Yourself

TRANSCRIPT

Introduction:

Welcome to Beyond Speaking with Brian Lord, a podcast featuring deeper conversations with the world's top speakers.

Brian Lord:

Hi, I'm Brian Lord, your host of the Beyond Speaking Podcast. And today I'm excited to have on Whitney Johnson. Whitney is recognized as one of the 50 Leading Business Thinkers in the world. She's an expert on disruptive innovation and personal disruption. She's the author of several books, including Disrupt Yourself, Putting the Power of Disruption, innovation, excuse me, Putting the Power of Disruptive Innovation to Work, Build a Team and Play to Their Strengths, and Lead Them Up the Learning Curve, and upcoming next year, a little bit of a teaser. She is the author of Smart Growth: How to Grow Your People to Grow Your Company. Whitney, thank you so much for joining us.

Whitney Johnson:

Oh, Brian, I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for having me.

Brian Lord:

So you're an expert on disruption and leading teams. What have people been asking you the most over the past year and a half?

Whitney Johnson:

That's such a great question and I- it's the answer is not obvious because it, there, there are lots of high-level questions, but the, the subterranean question they're asking me is how do I make sense of everything that's happened in the last year and a half in a way that's productive and meaningful.

Brian Lord:

How have you been answering that? I know that's a tough, tough thing to do, but how, what answers have you been given to them?

Whitney Johnson:

It's a very metaphysical question. Isn't it? How do I make sense of all this in a way that's productive? So I answer it in three ways. The first off is I talk a lot about the S-curve of learning and, and explain to people that growth is our default setting. And so one of the things I try to do is help people contextualize the experience that they're having- to understand that this past year we were all pushed on to a brand new growth curve an S-curve of learning. And so there was going to be, and there has been, and probably will continue to be for a while with all the change that's happening. This experience of us being at the launch point of a brand new S-curve of learning. And so, as a consequence, there are going to be lots of days where we feel overwhelmed. We feel impatient, we feel discouraged. And when people understand that they can say, oh, I'm having all these experiences and trying to deal with the past year and a half, but this is normal. I'm supposed to feel this way. And oh, by the way, I want to feel this way because growth is my default setting. I want to grow. I want to make progress. So that's the first thing that I do to help people is to just help them contextualize the experience that they're having of this is normal, that you feel this way. And by the way, you want to feel this way. And oh, by the way, how you deal with all this disruption that is taking place will ultimately define you and who you are. And so that's, that's the first thing I do is growth is who you are to grow as human, how you deal with disruption defines you. And so let me help you this mental model for the experience that you're having. And once we can have that map, it feels a lot less scary. It feels more manageable. It feels like, okay. So everything that just happened to me is helping me grow. Got it. Now I can move forward.

Brian Lord:

How do you help people develop that map or that sort of map to deal with those different things of, of I'm uncomfortable? I'm impatient. I, and for me, I, I understand like I want to grow like mentally, but sometimes I guess from a heart place, it's, it's hard to want to do that. How do you give people that roadmap to do that?

Whitney Johnson:

It is really hard. So let me, let me explain a map really quickly. And then I'll give you a simple example. So the map very quickly, the S-curve, some people are going to be familiar with this. If you're in product, you know, it's, it's, it's based on the S-curve that was created by E.M. Rogers, to help you figure out how quickly an innovation would be adopted. I've reimagined it to think about our growth. So you've got this shape of an S where you're at the base of it. As we just talked about this idea- of growth is very slow. It's actually not slow. It feels slow because it's not evident. In fact, it's very fast, but because it's not evident, you know that whenever you start something new, it's going to feel discouraging. It's going to feel like a slog. You think, am I making any progress? Why am I even here? This doesn't make sense. But then you put in that effort and then you start to move into that steep, sleek back of that S and now you're in this place of hyper-growth and exhilaration. And whereas everything felt really, really it took a long time for anything to happen now in a little time, a lot happened. So you've gone from this feeling of slow to fast, and then you get to the top of your S curve. And this is the place where you figured everything out, you know exactly what you're doing. It's now become pretty easy, but you're oh, by the way, a little bit bored. And so what you need to do so now it, it not only feels slow. It is slow. So you've got slow, fast, slow. You've now got this mental model to understand, in order for me to grow, I need to be able to, to go move through this growth cycle. I need to be able to learn and leap and repeat. Now, once you've got that mental map, how do you use it? Simple example. We won't talk about COVID, I'll talk about going on a vacation. I realized that our family wanted to take a vacation last December. I then realized, Ooh, I'm really apprehensive about taking this vacation. Why? Because I am not good at taking vacations. Why? Because going on vacation means you're going to go somewhere that you aren't usually doing something that you don't usually potentially doing it with people that you don't usually, that sounds like the bottom of a new S curve to me. And so what I did is at the beginning of the vacation, I said, all right, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to be on a new S curve. I'm going to feel uncomfortable. I'm going to feel awkward. I'm not going to know exactly what I'm doing, but that's okay. I'm at the bottom of the curve. And that gave me the ability to be kind and compassionate. And it didn't mean bad idea to go on a vacation. It just meant, oh yeah, I'm doing something new. And so that's how that map helps you. And then it helps you at the high end, when you're in a job, you're doing work. You love the people you're working with. You actually really like the work, but you're like, I got to do something else. I can't do this anymore. I know I'm really good at it, but I can't keep doing it. That's because you're at the top of the S curve. Again, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the people that you're working with or what you're doing. It just means inside of you, you need to keep growing. And it's a call to at the top of the mountain, you've got to keep climbing. You've got to find a new S-curve.

Brian Lord:

I think that's really fascinating because I think people understand external disruption like we've had over and over again, but it really evident this past year. But you also talk about disrupting yourself, which is you are driving the story, as opposed to the story happening to you. Can you separate out the, sort of the difference for those and how people can apply them differently?

Whitney Johnson:

Absolutely. So we talk a lot about we're being disrupted, you know, products and services are disrupting us, but when we, when we only focus on being disrupted, it puts us in this mindset of being a victim. Like we'd somehow don't have any control. And yet the only way you're gonna manage through uncertainty to manage through disruption is to disrupt yourself. Because when you focus on disrupting yourself, what am I going to do differently? How am I going to manage through this? I'm now becoming a agentic. I am no longer a victim. I am an agent. And so the, the difference is, is that being disrupted is you are a victim. You are being acted upon when you disrupt yourself, you are acting. It doesn't mean that there's not change going around, but there is a sense, very viscerally and intellectually that you have a say in how this turns out again, how you deal with disruption defines you. And so no matter what's going on, if you choose to disrupt yourself, it may even be, it may just be seeing the situation differently, then things go differently for you.

Brian Lord:

You know, I really like a "agentic," so I'm a talent agent. So that's going to be my new favorite word is "agentic." I learned it from Whitney Johnson. So thank you for sharing that with all of us. So you know, what are the daily steps that you take to set yourself up for success? Whether you're changing yourself or outside world is changing,

Whitney Johnson:

Oh, there are going to be some people listening to this that are not going to like me very much. [Laughing] I get up between four and five every morning. Sometimes it's a little bit earlier, but usually on average is between four and five. Because when I get up between four and five, that means I've gotten up before anxiety wakes up. And so that allows me to wake up. I read or listen to a sacred text, I meditate ponder. I write in my journal, I review what I wanted to get done for the day. And then in those first couple of hours before it's eight, am I do the deep work? I, I work on my next book I plan or, or ideate around a project for one of our clients. I do the things that require me to think. And so that, that sets me up for success every day. And, and even though I sometimes feel like I'm not being very productive, according to my family, I am a very productive individual. So they say.

Brian Lord:

You know, you also talk a lot about teams. A lot of leaders find themselves now with teams that are more remote, like we're moving towards that. But it was obviously a really quick shift to having more teams that are more remote than ever before. How can leaders better learn the strengths of their teams and help them be successful?

Whitney Johnson:

Such an interesting question. So I would say I, I actually think there's an operatory piece here. So I think the first thing you want to do is understand where each person is in their growth and their mindset around their growth. So we're going to get to strengths in just a minute, but it's going to look different depending on where you are. So if I'm a manager, I want to know we we've got our S-curve insight tool, and we have people take that and do this audit of, okay, where are my people on the curve? Because just because a person is two years out of college, doesn't mean they're not at the top of an S-curve. And just because a person is, you know, 30 years into their career, doesn't mean they're at the launch point of that S-curve. So I want to understand where is this person in their growth and not, where do I think they are, but where do they think they are? So it both matters. So, if they're at the launch point, if I think about their strengths, the question we're going to be asking is, well, what strengths do they have? Cause we may not know. And how are we going to apply them in this particular situation? And so one of the things that I like to use, you know, obviously you can use strengths finders, but I love to look at figuring out what strengths are is what's the thing that exasperates you. So the thing that you say, this is just common sense when someone says to you, "Well, Brian, you know, you know, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, it's just common sense." No, it's not common sense. It means it's a strength. And so I like to like mine for strengths in those, what exasperates you, that thing that you think everybody knows how to do. But at the launch point, it's the question of, well, what are those strengths that we need that you have, but also that apply in this particular situation. And the sweet spot, you may not even notice that they're doing well because everything's working. So why would you even notice? And so what you want to look for in the sweet spot is if everything on your team is working, look around and ask yourself, why is it working? Who's making this work, who are those people that they seem to be collaborating and making sure everything is working? Those things that I'm not noticing. That's going to tell me, okay, I've got some strengths here. Let me go look for those. And then in mastery, the question is, all right, I now know what their strengths are. It's obvious they're performing at a really high level. How do I now leverage these strengths? Either putting into a new opportunity, a new challenge, something new for them to do, and or to mentor the people on the team to bring them along the curve. So there are lots of questions you can ask to, to find out what your strengths are like. The thing that exasperates you were, what compliments do you dismiss that you deflect, but you really are going to apply those differently depending on where they are in their growth.

Brian Lord:

What are some of the pitfalls that even good managers make sometimes with this?

Whitney Johnson:

Okay. Well, one I've alluded to which is when they're in the sweet spot, is this idea of we tend to focus on the people at the launch point of like, oh no, they need a lot of support right now. I got to figure out how to get them, the training that they need so that they can gain some traction, or we're worried about the people who are in the mastery. We're thinking, okay, they're really good at what they're doing. They're either going to get bored and check out, or they're going to leave. They're a flight risk. I'm worried about them. So one mistake people make is with the sweet spot. They be there, you know, everything's fine. So they start ignoring them. And so I would say, you know, don't make, they're not a problem child. Don't make them one by ignoring them. The other mistake I think people make is that once a person gets really good at what they're doing, you're like, great. Let's just leave him and keep doing it. You can't do that. You've got to check-in. It may be that they're absolutely fine. They're in mastery. They're doing a great job. But one of the things that we can tease out with our, with our diagnostic is okay, they're in mastery, but are they bored? Are they feeling disengaged? Because if they are, they're looking for another job or they're checked out. And so the mistake that they make is so-and-so is really good at their job. Everything's cooking. Oh no, no, no. So-And-So's good at their job. You've got to make sure they stay challenged so that they stay good at their job. And they stay good at their job working for you in this job.

Brian Lord:

Recently, you tweeted that a person's mindset will determine how well they move along the S-curve. How do you figure that out? And then how do you develop confidence and conviction along those lines?

Whitney Johnson:

Yeah. So the mindset, it's this question of there are a couple of things going on. Do I have a growth mindset? So I'm at the bottom of this S curve. Do I believe that I am capable of moving along this curve because sometimes we get it. So we've seen this over the last year and a half, right? We've seen some people who have been pushed off onto the new S-curve. We all have been who we have seen them grow tremendously over the past 18 months. We also have people who have been pushed off the S-curve who are just they're floundering they're, they're, they're foundering and floundering. Because they don't have this belief of I'm in this new place and I don't know what to do, and I'm not sure. And I, I don't believe that I can make progress from here. And so what, what we're looking for is does this person believe, even though they're at the launch point of that S-curve, are they not in a place where they're performing, trying to prove to everybody that they know what they're they're doing? Are they, instead in this place of experimentation, this place of learning this place of iteration, this place of, oh, I just got this feedback, this isn't working. Okay. What do I need to tweak? Because I can change this. Isn't about my identity. I'm not this isn't a referendum on me. This is just an experiment, launch point, new information. I'll tweak it, I'll move up that S-curve because I've taken my ego out of the equation. And so you can actually have confidence even at the launch point, but it's the confidence that you'll figure it out. And then once you move off the launch point, then you've got confidence because you're now actually good at what you're doing.

Brian Lord:

So confidence really plays into a lot of these different things. And, you know, we've just come through a time where fear played a really big role in people's lives. How would you encourage someone to dare, dream, and do?

Whitney Johnson:

So here's the first thing that I would say is that- so we have a garden and my husband, you know, planted blackberries and strawberries and raspberries, and it's just this beautiful little paddock, this beautiful plot of land and, and blackberries, you know, we're getting lots and lots of blackberries right now. Well, one of the challenges that I have when I go down into that garden is to not focus on the blackberries or the raspberries or the fresh tomatoes or the fresh kale, but to see the weeds on the ground and how we need to pull those weeds. And one of the things that I have to make a very deliberate choice to do is to not focus on the weeds, not focused on this thing that is somehow marring, the beauty of this garden that we have instead to focus on the raspberries and the strawberries and the blackberries. And so one of the things that, so th th the, the piece that to answer your question is, I remember when COVID first hit back in here in the United States, back in March and everything shut down. I remember being really afraid. I thought it was two days. My children said it was two weeks cause our children always tell us the truth. And after about two weeks, I realized I have to make a choice here. I have to I'm I have to choose, am I going to be filled with fear? Or am I, am I going to focus on the weeds? Or am I going to be filled with hope and focus on the blackberries? And so what I would say for all of us now where we have maybe sometimes slipped into a habit of focusing on fear, the question is we have to, what I have to do- And I think we all have to do is just say to our neural pathways, not going to focus on the fear, I'm going to focus on the hope. I'm not going to focus on the wheat. I'm going to focus on the blackberry and I'm going to do what CS Lewis said to do, which is, do not dare not to dare. And so that's, I think we need to do right now is just focus on what's working focused on what can go, right? That's that's the dare part. That's not why, that's why it's not dream first. We dare first. We dare to focus on what's going well. We dare to focus on hope, dare to focus, not on fear. I'm going to say it again, just for emphasis, but on hope.

Brian Lord:

I love it. I love it. I believe it on my, my kids, our kids tell the truth. My daughter made that for me, like that exact quote made it out of like a C.S. Lewis book. So it was very, very cool to have that. So I love that there you know, speaking of hope and next things and everything else, I know you're not doing a huge focus on it right now, but you're, you're moving into talking about smart growth, how to grow your people to grow your company. Where did that idea come from?

Whitney Johnson:

Yeah. So the, where it came from a couple of things. Number one is that for, for listeners who are familiar with my prior two books, but if you're not, I'll tell you what they're about. You know, there's The Disruption, there's the Building a Team. And in those books, there was always in the background, kind of in the scenery of the book, this S curve of learning. And I realized that it was only in the background and this book really needed to focus on helping people understand it, dissect it, because it's such an easy way to think about what growth looks like. And as we started the conversation to contextualize the experience that we're having of trying to develop. And so this book is focused on really outlining that mental model for people so that we can all grow faster and grow in ways that we want to grow. And then what, and then the over overarching premises, if you want to grow your company, you start by growing your people. So focus on how to grow yourself, then grow your people and then grow your company. And so that's what this book is about.

Brian Lord:

All right. Last question. Your most recent tweet was what is the defining moment that makes someone who they are? So my question for you, Whitney Johnson, what was the defining moment that made you who you are?

Whitney Johnson:

Oh, way to give me a softball to end the conversation. [Laughing] All right. I think that the reason that's a hard question to answer and I will answer it. It's just that there's more, there's always more than one defining moment. Right. so I think that I'm going to go with a defining moment that I'm going to go with just what came in my head. Cause I think that's important. So I defining moment for me was marrying my husband. And I'll tell you why. Up until, up until that time you know, I, I grew up and I, you know, I went to college and, but I didn't have, I was kind of unmoored. Like, I didn't know I wanted to do, I majored in music in college, but I didn't want to do anything in music. And sorta was, had this vague notion of what I was going to be when I grew up was maybe I'd be a mother and have children, which I ended up doing, but I didn't really, I was untethered. And, and something that was a defining moment for me was marrying someone who loved me and appreciated me and anchored me. And, and when I had that emotional anchor and tethering that allowed that, that answered all sorts of questions that allowed me to then grow and develop as a human being and as a person. And so so many good things and I got married in my twenties and so many good things have happened as a consequence of making that decision to marry the person that I married when I, when I married him. So that's that is not the defining moment, but certainly a defining moment.

Brian Lord:

Well, Whitney, thank you so much for sharing these stories and your insights and your outlook on what's coming up and we really appreciate it. So thank you so much for being a guest here on the Beyond Speaking Podcast.

Beyond Speaking is hosted by Brian Lord and produced by Eric Woodie