Jon Gordon- Relationship Grit

Intro: Welcome to Beyond Speaking with Brian Lord, a podcast featuring deeper conversations with the world's top speakers.

 

Brian Lord: I'm Brian Lord, your host of the Beyond Speaking podcast. This week we have Jon Gordon. Jon's probably best known as the author of The Energy Bus. But as you can see from the background behind him, he's got several other great books. The Hard Hat is kind of one of my secret favorites. Jon has also spoken to most of the top companies and organizations in the country around the world. He's also worked with a lot of the top sports teams, the Dodgers, the Miami Heat, Clemson football, and many others. So, Jon, thank you so much for joining us today.

 

Jon Gordon: Thank you, Brian. Great to be with you.

 

Brian Lord: Now, we've been promoting is people are able to... Your topic today is the Number One Predictor and Factor for Success. So instead of just burying the lead, let's just get right into it. Let me know what is that number one predictor and factor for success?

 

Jon Gordon: Well, a lot of people say that it's hard work, consistency, attitude. That's what they think it is. But it's actually grit. It's not talent. It's not title. It's not wealth, it's not good. It's grit: the ability to work hard for a long period of time, to persevere, to overcome, to keep moving forward in the face of rejection, failure, adversity, change, and setbacks. And so we know that grit drives us. But the big question is what drives grit? Angela Duckworth obviously has done some great research in that area. But what I've found in my work with teams and organizations and countless superstars is that there's really a formula for grit. I put together this formula and I speak to so many organizations on what that formula is. It includes positivity, includes optimism, which is what I'm known for, right? But there's a certain formula and it starts with being inspired by vision and purpose. So grit is inspired by vision and purpose because if you can see it, you'll keep on working towards it. And if you have a purpose right, you'll keep on moving towards that purpose. You won't give up when maybe you should. This greater purpose will move you forward and your purpose is greater than your challenges. And we don't get burned out because of what we do. We get burned out because we forget why we do it. And so you remember that purpose. You have this vision of where you're going, and that will be part of the formula that drives your grit as you move forward.

 

Brian Lord: So what are- I guess, what are the daily [reminders] or how do you keep yourself focused or remind yourself to keep your eye on that purpose?

 

Jon Gordon: So it's telescope and microscope, right? Telescope: big-picture vision. Keep that alive. I had to do that when I wrote The Energy Bus. It was rejected by over 30 publishers. I was told to give up. "It's not going to happen", but I couldn't give up because I had my vision to encourage and inspire millions of people, one person at a time. So that's what kept me going. So I kept hoping, kept on dreaming, kept on praying through all of the rejections. Finally, Jon Wiley and Sons agreed to publish the book. So I was so excited it was coming out six months later. I asked a friend, "What should I do?" He said to pray. And so I prayed for it be best bestseller. It came out. It was a best seller. In Korea. I learned you have to be specific with your prayers. It was like this huge hit South Korea, not North Korea, but South Korea was this huge hit. But not one bookstore in the United States would carry the book. So I decided to go on a twenty-eight city tour, paid for it myself. Publisher wouldn't even pay for it. And I went from city to city sharing the message in the book. We had five people in one city, ten people in another, twenty in another. The most people we had were one hundred people in Des Moines, Iowa. They thought Jeff Gordon was coming. That's why they showed up.

 

Brian Lord: [Laughing]

 

Jon Gordon: Not a joke, Brian, that's a true story. I remember I got home. I didn't know what the future held, but I knew that I had this vision and mission and I had to live it every day. And here we are now. Thirteen years later and I'm still living it. I keep that big picture vision in front of me, that telescope. But I also have the microscope. When COVID hit in March, I had to return to the big picture, the telescope, and the microscope. What was I going to do each day to make the vision come alive? Because there was so much uncertainty, there was so much fear. There was so much doubt. And I was talking to a Navy SEAL, Chad Wright, former Navy SEAL, and he said, "Jon, a lot of guys don't make it to be a Navy SEAL because they don't make it through hell week and they don't make it through hell week because they're longing for it to be over. They're dreaming for the end." He said, "The ones who make it are the ones who just say, 'I want to make it to breakfast. And then midday evening and breakfast again.'" So what I realized was during this time, the key to success was going to be to win the moment, win today, to not worry about tomorrow, but just make sure that you are winning every day. So I identified with that, looked like I zoom-focused and it looked like staying positive not allowing myself to get negative like so many were, don't allow fear to reign, stay in trust. Stay in faith, get better every day. How can I improve? Read? Physically, I started doing more exercise. I started taking two walks a day instead of one. So I really started to focus on my health and how I can improve through my own growth. We adapted. We innovated as a company. We actually created a virtual training which we did not offer. And within a month we had a new program we were offering. We did three live virtual events. They all sold out. And now we have a program that we're actually going to use going forward, even when physical events come back. So we adapted, we got better. And then a big part of that was to also say win today looked like encouraging others making a difference. So I return to that rookie mindset, what I was doing that tour years before and I was like, "OK, just help people. Just make a difference one person at a time." So I reached out to my clients, my past clients. I heard from coaches who reached out to me, hey, can you speak to my team? My team is struggling. We spoke to UCLA football. The Minnesota Timberwolves, got on Zoom with the Seattle Seahawks before the season started, worked with the Tampa Bay Lightning before the season, but reached out to the GM and the coach. I was basically just encouraging anyone and everyone I could and making people better. And as I was doing that, I was getting better. So practically it's telescope, microscope. What's the big picture vision? How am I going to live and breathe it every day?

 

Brian Lord: What is your morning look like, like what was today other than the walk, what did you start off with today?

 

Jon Gordon: Well, I actually got up in the morning. First thing I did was to take that walk of gratitude. So I walk and I say what I'm thankful for. And I'll also pray on those walks. And then I'll get on a call- I'll get on some calls. I'll actually be productive on those walks. And while I'm walking, I'm talking to people and I'm killing two birds with one stone. So getting exercise and being productive. Then I'll come back, eat breakfast, shower and be ready to take on the day. That walk of gratitude creates a fertile mind that is ready for great things to happen. And the research shows you can't be stressed and thankful at the same time. So if you're feeling grateful, if you're feeling blessed, you won't be stressed. And so instead of all those stress hormones that slowly drain you each day, you're floating your body and brain with these positive emotions that uplift you. And it really has been like my number one key to success. And I started doing this like 15 years ago. Huge impact on my life, because, as you know, I'm not naturally positive. I have to work hard at it. And so over the years, I really worked at being a more positive person. And I think it's why I become a good teacher because if you're not naturally positive and you have to work at it, you know how to help others. And that translated into positive leadership and helping leaders become more positive leaders and also teams how they can come together, overcome the negativity that sabotages teams to become stronger, more united, and more connected.

 

Brian Lord: One of the things I've always been fascinated about with you is your ability to connect. And you've spoken to so many teams, so many organizations. You're friends with everybody. How does that happen?

 

Jon Gordon: I don't know exactly how it happens. I believe the best marketing strategy of all is to actually do great work. I believe it's because I care. I really do care about people. And number one, I'm here to make a difference in people's lives. I always think at the end of mine and what that looks like, I'm not here for money. I'm not here for fame or success. I really am here to make a difference. And it goes back to that tour when I was humbled, where I learned firsthand it's about making a difference. It's not about you. And so I think that's important. I think people know that I care and the coaches know I care. I don't have an agenda. And so they trust me. And I think that's important that they trust you. They know you don't have an agenda. I don't try to take pictures with the athletes when I'm with them. It's about how can I serve them and help them? So I think that's important that they know that you are real, transparent, authentic. And I think that's the other key, is that I'm just authentic, that I have me, that I'm not afraid to share my flaws and my faults, which I do have. And my wife and I just wrote a book called Relationship Grit, and we put it all in there. We put our mistakes or- actually my mistakes. My wife didn't have any mistakes. [Laughing] We share like what I did wrong early on in our marriage, how she almost left me, how I was so negative, how I changed. And people say, "Wow, Jon, you didn't have to do that, but I'm so glad you did." And I needed to be real and authentic to help people change because if they can see who I was and know how I changed and who I've become, that's going to help them on the journey. So I think that's the key. I think- people have read my books, they had me come speak and then we just connect with them there. And yeah, I love that I get to do this work and I get to work with all these incredible leaders because I've learned so much from that. Damboa Sweeney, Erik Spoelstra, an incredible culture builder. And then you talk about the Tampa Bay Lightning. This is my first time ever speaking to a National Hockey League team. The NHL got a chance to work with them and learn from them. Right? So I'm learning from everyone. I get to work with Pete Carroll. He's we're so like-minded. And we finally got a chance to work together when he asked me to speak for this training camp this year. And so that was a lot of fun connecting with him and learning from him and then Russell Wilson and connecting with him and seeing the kind of positive leader he is. So I'm always learning and growing. And I think that's the best part of doing this work is just how can you learn? How can you grow and then how can you share what you learn with others?

 

Brian Lord: That's one of the things I really like, too. So I'm an Indiana Pacers fan. But the Heat, for example, I mean, you just named off all these- like the Seahawks are undefeated right now. The Tampa Bay Lightning just won. I think they won the NHL championship, Stanley Cup, and then the Miami Heat, I think in some ways are the most remarkable of all, because no one picked them to be there. And one of their big things is it's all about culture with them. And I've been a Heat fan for a long time just watching and I remember when Erik Spoelstra was like the video guy on the team like we went to a game with like, "Oh, who's that guy?" And what do you think that makes their culture? I know you spoke to them, you don't want to take any credit, but what are some of the things that you talk to them about, and did you see any of that in play this year?

 

Jon Gordon: Yeah, I never take credit. It's always the leadership. It's always the culture they build because I actually did speak to the Indiana Pacers as well before the season. So, again, if I had... If I was the reason, the Pacers would have been there as well. Right?

 

Brian Lord: Yeah.

 

Jon Gordon: And again, they had some of their own challenges in terms of their team and their culture, but incredible people, incredible organization- the Pacers are. And so you learn a lot of them from each team. But what makes the Heat so successful is they do have a defined culture. They do live and breathe it at every level of the organization from ownership, from Pat Riley, from Erik Spoelstra. There's an alignment at the top. A lot of times we have the coach trying to build the culture, but the GMs are not on board, the ownership isn't on board. I can tell right away when I work with an organization. Is their alignment at the leadership level? A team that is not connected at the top will crumble at the bottom. And so you have to make sure that you have that alignment at the highest levels. And then from the coach on the way down, Spoelstra- "Spo," He literally makes sure that that is ingrained into everything they do. And there is a unique and distinct culture that if you are not a hard worker, you're not going to make it there. If you're not improving and growing and training and lifting and getting bigger and stronger and faster, you're not going to make it there. Like, they demand a lot of their players. But they also give them a lot, right? They invest a lot. They truly care about these players. They love them. That's not true for every organization. And so they do the little things that invest where they love and they serve and they care and then they get that commitment back from their players. So you saw that on full display with the team you saw it in years past because they would actually go very far and almost even make the playoffs when they had no business almost making the playoffs. They didn't have a lot of talent, so they always played better than their talent. And this year they finally had some talent and you saw their talent, their hard work. Right? And their culture come together and that was why they had success. And I think they're going to be dangerous going forward. I knew they were going to be a good team watching them play during the season because you could tell that they were gelling. They had young, confident guys and they had the right guys that fit their culture. In years past. They had a culture, but they had some guys that really didn't quite fit. So they never really were firing on all cylinders. They weren't optimizing. Now they have the right guys to actually optimize their culture. And I think that's a great question, a great answer for a lot of organizations. They have to ask the question, "Do we have the right people? What does our culture stand for and how can we find the right people that stand for what we stand for?" And once you actually make those decisions, then your culture will start to improve. Getting the right people that fit your culture is essential.

 

Brian Lord: How do you- if you're in leadership, how do you get on the same page in terms of culture? Is it just getting somebody from the start? Is it building towards it? What is that?

 

Jon Gordon: It's knowing what it takes to create a great culture. I wrote a book called You Win in the Locker Room First and then also The Power of Positive Leadership, where I extensively talk about that and the power of a positive team. And a lot of leaders read this book and they go, "OK, this is what it's going to take to create a great culture. What do we stand for? What do we want to be known for? Gathering the team together, talking about the culture, living the culture." Everyone today has a mission statement, right? But only the great teams organizations have people who are on a mission. So it's about understanding that we're not just talking about the values on the wall, we're living those values. We're breathing them every day. And I think that's the key in an organization where everyone understands what the values are, they understand what the culture stands for, and they recognize that they are creating their culture every day by what they think. But what they say and by what they do. And culture is not static, it's dynamic. And so they are creating it. So it doesn't matter what your culture was like yesterday, what are you doing today to make your culture great? And I think great organizations understand that, and every player understands how they can contribute to the culture they're creating.

 

Brian Lord: So we do have some questions for you here. So the first one that we got in, this is from Brian- not me, different Brian. "What were some of the things that helped to make- or flashpoints that helped make The Energy Bus so wildly popular?"

 

Jon Gordon: It was definitely the fact that when I started early on, I would speak on the book and everywhere I went, I just talked about the book in the principal. So people heard me talk about the book. They would then read the book. And then when people read the book, if they never heard me speak, they were inviting me to speak on it. So for some reason, it really was sticky and the principles really were something that people gravitated towards. And I also think it dealt with positive energy and negative energy and is one of the first books to actually deal with negativity in organization and on teams, energy vampires- I called them in the book. And it really gave a language for what every leader was dealing with and every coach was dealing with on their team. I'll never forget Jack Del Rio, the first coach to actually bring me in to speak to his team, Jacksonville Jaguars, 2007, the book just came out and he's like, "Jon, we have all these energy vampires. I know who they are, but they're on contracts. So I can't, I can't get rid of them. But I'm actually taking the steps to be more positive than the negativity that I'm facing as you said in the book. Also all the negativity in the media, I'm now dealing with that in a positive way. But we will no longer allow energy vampires to sabotage our team." And so he create a dialog around it. It gave him the language to talk about it with his team. And then everyone in the team now can actually recognize whether they are being a positive contributor or a negative drainer. And so by doing that, it really resonated with teams and organizations and schools. And we know that negativity is what sabotages our school systems and our school districts. It sabotages our organizations and our companies and our sports teams. And we see it sabotaging our country right now with politics. Right? And so we see it play out. And this is a book that helps us understand how to overcome it and live with more optimism and faith and passion and purpose. And I think I think people are just connected with it. And the story of a guy who goes from negative to positive, they resonated with him and he was based on me. So that's why he was so easy to write about and I think people resonated with the real story of who I was. Different name change- George. And I think... That's all I can say is "I think" and the only other thing I can say is I do believe in the Creator of the Universe. I believe God has a plan. And I wrote this book in three and a half weeks of divine inspiration, the way it looked through me, the way it was rejected by all of the publishers, then finally coming out and then finally getting it in bookstores, took five years for it to be a bestseller. And now it's sold over two million copies. I got an email a few weeks ago that it save someone's life, that they were going to commit suicide and they read the book and it gave them hope for one more day, is what they said. And right then and there, I knew that's why I wrote the book for someone just like that who is struggling.

 

Brian Lord: Wow, that is amazing. That's that's amazing. One of the other books of yours I really like and the talks I really like is the No Complaining Rule. And if there was ever a year where it felt like it was legitimate to complain, it's 2020. How would you approach that with somebody who's just- I mean, they literally, like, legitimately have had a very tough year and feel like they've got every reason. What what would you tell that person?

 

Jon Gordon: It is always legitimate to complain. The no complaining rule says if you have a complaint, great, but you must also come with a solution. So we want to get rid of toxic complaining, mindless complaining, venting that causes you to be stuck where you are instead of where you want to be. And so if you're complaining, you're focusing on your problem instead of your solution, you're focusing on what's holding you back instead of what will move you forward. And so complaining by itself is not helpful. But if it's a justified complaint, there's something we have to work on. There's something that we need to improve upon, something we need to innovate and get better at. Well, great. Bring the complaint, but bring the solution. And those complaints are catalysts for new ideas and innovations, better ways of doing things. So a lot of companies have actually implemented the no complaining rule as a way to get better, grow, innovate, adapt, and improve. And so we think about every single new business process or invention. It was the result of a complaint that something didn't work where there was a better way of doing something. So I'm all for complaining, but not mindless complaining. This is a joke that I say often. Complaining is like throwing up. Afterward, you feel better, but everyone around you feels sick.

 

Brian Lord: [Laughing]

 

Jon Gordon: And I know it's disgusting, but we'll never forget it because it is toxic. So don't just view people with your complaints. Instead, bring solutions, bring hope, bring ways that we can make the world better. So again, you might have a time where you're complaining and we're all human. So that's normal to complain at times. But you don't want to stay there. You don't want to let it take you down a spiral staircase of depression, despair, and discouragement. We want to find ways to move forward with optimism and hope and belief to move forward. And all the research shows that it's the optimists that create the future, pessimists do not change the world.

 

Brian Lord: So another question here for... This is regarding thriving during change. So pre-COVID- it's from Don- "Pre-COVID you were already speaking about thriving during change and this is one of the biggest periods of change many of us have seen. What have you seen, reinforced or what has become more important?"

 

Jon Gordon: Well, seeing these principles play out, as you talk about, I did talk about thriving through change and because of change. What I learned during this time is that we do have to survive. A lot of businesses just had to put steps in place to survive. And the next goal was to advance, to move forward. We had our March Madness happen when COVID hit in March, right? Not basketball, but COVID. And so then the next step is to advance. How do I move forward one step at a time? And that's what winning today looked like. That's what zoom-focusing looked like. And then we had to adapt. And so during this time, because of the change, we had to adapt to innovate. And maybe it wasn't to thrive during this time, but the steps we would take now would allow us to thrive in the future because of this time. So what we did now during this time would allow us to thrive on the other side of this. And so adaption innovation is essential. Those organizations and teams we know from past depressions and recessions, those who embrace change, who learn from it, who are here to grow from it, those are the ones who ride the wave to a successful future. Those who resist the change, who are complaining and being negative about it. Those are the ones who become unadaptable to change. Those are the ones who actually really fall and crumble through the change and eventually will go out of business. And so we're seeing a lot of that. So your perspective during this time, how you view the change, how you embrace it, your attitude and your mindset are essential. And I saw that with my own team. I'm not just talking about it. What I learned during this time is I had to live it and it was really cool because we came together as a team and we said, "Look, this is an opportunity for us to live the principles we've been talking about. Let's show the world what it looks like to be a positive team through this time. Let's come together and grow together and let's find ways to innovate and adapt." I can't tell you how many success stories we've had as a result of this attitude and mindset and doing this work. I've been busier than ever doing virtual talks and virtual keynotes that I did not expect to happen. And I'm so thankful I did. But I know it wouldn't have happened if people didn't see my positive attitude and my optimism and what I was sharing to help people in organizations. And again, it wasn't just hope. I had one restaurant chain, a large one, say that they actually adopted my Win Today mindset and they're doing 83 percent of covid sales as a result of that mindset of saying what can we control, where can we adapt a lot more catering, a lot more outside seating and eating outside and the things that they did and just staying positive allowed them to experience the success that they had. So for me, it was confirmation that thriving through change is possible. It's not just a bunch of words, it's real. And all you have to do is look at Kellogg's and Post during the Great Depression. You know that story, Brian?

 

Brian Lord: No, no. Tell me.

 

Jon Gordon: Great story. So my good friend Damon West, we wrote The Coffee Bean together, which has been a really powerful message during this time, because when the hot water hits and you're in that hot water, you can be like a carrot and get weakened by the environment. You can be like an egg and get hardened by the environment. Bitter, angry, frustrated, weak, anxious, fearful, like the carrot. You don't want to be like either those. You want to be like the coffee bean. But the coffee bean is the boiling hot water. What happens to the coffee bean transforms the water into coffee. And so instead of being impacted by its environment, it transforms the environment that it's in. And so it sees the circumstance and sees the challenge and it finds a way to overcome. Well, Kellogg's and Post- Daman tells the story- 1929, Great Depression hits Post is the juggernaut cereal company Kellogg's is the smaller company. Post stops, investing stops, advertising becomes very fearful during the Great Depression, Kellogg sees a huge opportunity. They start investing, they start advertising, they start innovating. Rice Krispies were created during that time. By 1933, Kellogg's had surpassed Post and never looked back. They became the giant, the juggernaut because of what they did during that time. They embrace the change. They expanded, they grew, they were optimistic, and they create a brighter and better future for their company. I think that's a great example for all of us.

 

Brian Lord: One of the things, too, I like- and you beat me to it earlier. I was going to have it this far along. But your new book is Relationship Grit. And as you mentioned it's with your wife, Kathryn. How has this- I know I'm assuming you wrote this before March and it just came out recently. What are those things that that you talk about in the book? What of those have you put into place over the past six or seven months?

 

Jon Gordon: That's a great question. We actually wrote the book before the pandemic, not knowing that so many relationships we're going to be struggling during this time. And so I asked my wife a few weeks ago, on a scale of one to ten, "How much do you like to be married to me?" She said, "Pre-COVID or now?" I said, "My goal is to stay like a seven or eight during this time." Like, I just want to make sure I don't lose ground. And we did have to put together these principles and live these principles during this time ourselves because we were spending so much time together where I'm usually on the road. Right, 80, 90 events a year, and now I'm home all the time. As my wife would say, "You're here all the time." And so we actually put them into practice in terms of communicating, in terms of taking the time to connect, show our commitment, show that we care and doing the little things. It's so funny, we just did the Today Show the other day- my wife and I. And my wife shared a little tip. She said, "You know what? Someone asked about how to create the relationship- how to keep it exciting during this time." She said, "Flirt in the kitchen. When you're making a meal together or cleaning up. Just flirt." And I can't tell you how many people have emailed her and reached out to her based on that one little advice of flirting. And it shows you it's the little things, right, that are the big things that matter. And so it's the little pieces of advice. Like one thing my wife says is, you know, make sure you compliment your spouse, compliment your significant other. Let the best thing they hear about themselves come from you because so often we act like we're on two separate teams, but we need to become one team. We started this off by talking about grit, right? The number one predictor and factor of success, relationship grit is about how a team comes together. A couple comes together and stays connected and stays committed. And through that, they stay strong through adversity and challenges and they don't give up. When the relationship gets hard, when life gets hard, they don't give up. They weather the storms. And as a result of that, on the other side of it is more meaning, more love, more joy, more intimacy. We don't want couples to stay together just to stay together and have grit and be miserable. Right. Like, oh, we're together, but we're miserable. We want people to stay together so that they can feel that greater connection and love as we have right. There are many times we should have given up and we didn't. And so it's been really well received. And I've just loved my wife actually coming into her own and sharing all this amazing advice she's always shared over the years with so many of her girlfriends. Now she's sharing with everyone and it's been cool to watch her grow and doing this.

 

Brian Lord: So I guess one last question here to kind of bring it in together with grit and sports and some other things, so one of the teams that you've worked with a lot is the Los Angeles Dodgers they're in the World Series right now with Tampa Bay. I don't know if you have mixed feelings or not being... Of your ties to Florida, the ties to the Dodgers and everything else, but the Dodgers team have been great for so long but haven't won the World Series. So what advice would you give to them? One, on how they've kept coming back, but two, how do you get over that final hurdle to be the best?

 

Jon Gordon: Such a great question. Dave Roberts is a really great leader. He knows how to connect with each one of his players and he develops these great relationships with them that allows them to be their best. I think people talk about getting rid of him. They don't realize how successful they've been with him. Just because they haven't won the big one doesn't mean he hasn't done a great job. Right. And so I've watched it first hand, worked with them a number of years, did not get to speak to them this year because of COVID and everything, but stayed in touch with the coaches and Dave and so forth and communicating with them. Not now, but definitely throughout the year. And so one, I like to leave them alone here this time because they know what they need to do. So what I would tell them to do is just keep having fun like they are. You can tell they are playing with a joy. They have this incredible optimism. I really do believe this is their year. Just watching these guys and watching how they overcame a deficit. They came back from, what, 3-1 to win the series before and doing that against the Rays. Right? I think gave them a lot of freedom to just say, "You know what, we should have been out of this. We're in it. Let's go." And they won the first game with that kind of attitude and energy, Kershaw pitched really well. So all I would say to them is keep doing what you're doing. Whenever I work with athletes, I always tell them if it serves you, keep doing it. If it's not serving you, then we have to make a change. But I never want someone to take a piece of advice from me if something else is already working. So it's not something that I should say do this mental mind trick. No, no. If getting mad when you're playing helps you infuse you in that moment and you actually play better, then do it. But if you find it actually distracts you and ends up hurting you, then don't. So each person is not a robot. They're unique, they're different and you have to find what works for you to be your best. So for me, that's the kind of advice I like to share. But I do help them a lot of times overcome their fear, their discouragement, their doubts, the negativity, and also the distractions and division they feel so often that keeps them from being their best. And I wrote about that in The Garden. Actually, my new book, besides Relationship Grit, the Garden, is really a- it's a spiritual book, but it's really a great book to help them win the mental and spiritual battle that they have to overcome in order to be great, because every great performer, whether in business or sports, has to overcome that doubt and those feelings of "Am I worthy to finally have that victory in that trial?"

 

Beyond Speaking is hosted by Brian Lord and produced by Eric Woodie